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how good is the type 45 destroyer

how good is the type 45 destroyer

You seem to have latched onto my comment to interpret it as a criticism of US sourced weapons. I'm British and love military stuff. Jonathan – The T26 will have a Gun capable of NGS,I think you mean T31e yeah. First, JARRETT’s Raytheon Phalanx 20 mm Close In Weapons System (CIWS) designed specifically to shoot down incoming AShMs was placed in autoengagement mode but failed to engage the Silkworm and instead targeted chaff launched by MISSOURI. cruiser based on maybe a stretched tri-hulled version of the T45 would be a way forward. Anti-surface capability will rely entirely on the Martlet and MBDA Sea Venom lightweight AShMs carried by Leonardo Wildcat HMA2 helicopters. If it’s possible if the ADL could be double decked i.e. So you think then that the RN wasted money with T26 going for SeaCeptor and Smart-L? I did notice that DCNS states that the A-70 is for SCALP and the A-50 for the Aster 15/30. Together with active radar homing (ARH) SM-6 and ESSM Block 2 missiles these destroyers will be formidable AAW and ballistic missile defence (BMD) platforms and gain superior capabilities over and against the T45. You give a very interesting and insightful post about T45, thank you for that. The Type 45, or Daring-class, Destroyer is a moderator exclusive ship (This is until the next update, where the ship will be balanced for public use and have the following features removed) featuring infinite fuel, no damage, and a working BAE 4.5 inch Mk 8 naval gun.. The Batches 1 and 2 were cramped and this affected the number and type of weapons which could be carried. T45 was not designed to be as capable as a multirole vessel when compared to Arleigh Burke's. And please don't worry, your report will be anonymous. Faced with the reality that a force of 19 ships was unaffordable, and with no additional funding, the RN instead turned to a compromise that it has done several times since WW2 for its frigate force. Both events confirmed that the greatest defence against incoming missiles was via a hard kill. A Type 45 Destroyer replacement based on the Type 26 would provide a tangible means to meet the aspiration of continuously producing two standard classes of ships for the Royal Navy, allowing for a more sustainable UK shipbuilding industry. Therefore if we could afford both a VLS and… Read more », I would Like to see 12 of the existing cells quad packed with standard seaceptor, and 12 more quad packed with Camm-er, and the remaining 24 cells with Aster 30 for a higher performance for the rarer occurrences. Fine article with something important to say. (Perhaps recognising the practice of firing multiple Standard missiles at one target, the South Korean Sejong the Great class destroyers carry no less than one hundred and twenty-eight missiles of different combinations.) Really interesting read, I like the aster 15s being replaced with sea ceptor but quad packet giving many more. I think HMS Duncan was swarmed by 16 Russian Jets in the Black Sea if each jet carried 2 ASM that would be 32 inbound missiles. From my knowelegde i've discovered that the Type 45 destoyer isn't all its cracked up to be. Maybe someone on board a T45 can say where the Mk41 are meant to go. Kelvin’s. I'm not sure if in your opinion doctrine/fleet role is a justification of the lack of utility or merely an excuse, any thoughts? What it shows is they really should be putting a medium gun Capable of NGFS on the type 26s. Too valuable. SAMPSON features two back-to-back planar arrays which rotate at 30 revolutions per minute leaving no area of the sky without coverage for less than 0.5 seconds. And perhaps inner layer of… Read more », are we ever going to know what the tests of dragonfire were? Instead the extra 16 VLS tubes should be fitted with 12 tubes full of quad packed Sea Ceptor ER (48 missiles). We mustn’t confuse SeaViper and the ‘barge’ it is bolted on to. [2] In the same article he gives a detailed analysis of weapons options for the Type 31e (T31e) frigate, much of which also can apply to the T45. The Type 45 Destroyer is more than just a ship: it’s a symbol of Britain’s eminent place on the world stage and a powerful deterrent to those who would do us harm. The most glaring fundamental error is that Aster missiles have active RF seekers like CAMM/Sea Ceptor, and the SAMPSON radar doesn’t illuminate the target as stated in the article. The US Naval War College has suggested that SAMPSON is capable of tracking 1,000 objects the size of a cricket ball travelling at Mach 3, consequently emphasising the radar’s performance against high speed stealth targets. Either way, apparently the system is so good as it is now that it had to be turned off during excerises because it was downing everything. That would give an anti air load out of 120 missiles, a huge increase for minimal cost and could be done immediately. RATINGS: Burke gets 10 points for design and 7 points for its propulsion system. Even with electronics growing ever smaller a 30mm plus nature gives you all sorts of fusing options that a 20mm doesn’t give. The 4 remaining tubes of the 16 can have extra ASTER 30. Also included are spares, handling equipment, test equipment, operator manuals and technical documentation, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, training, technical, and logistical support services, and other related elements of logistical support. As I said above T45 without proper ASW systems is a thing to be escorted. In practice if Sea Viper sees the target early it should be able to do an intercept. The short answer is that it's really good at its specialized role, but not much else. American practice is to ripple fire missiles with at least two directed at each target. ... 2019 tanker incident compelled the Royal Navy to accelerate by several weeks a planned deployment to the Gulf by the Type 45 destroyer … Daring , Dauntless , Diamond , Dragon , Defender and Duncan are all in commission. With the Harpoon Block 1C missiles in RN service now obsolescent they will be removed from both T23 frigates and T45 destroyers by 2023. Both missiles feature inertial guidance and active radar homing.” Secondly, he talks of Sampson illuminating the targets, he is referring to the constant track and update of the targets for mid course guidance, all of which puts the missile in the best position to save it’s flight energy while achieving a high PKill. You would be better with an even bigger gun on a bigger hull much further out. Replacing Aster 15 with Seaceptor is a no brainer for me and could double a T45’s weapons load overnight. These shortcomings will all begin to be addressed from 2023 on Flight III Arleigh Burke destroyers which will be equipped with the introduction of the AN/SPY-6 active electronic scanned array (AESA) Air and Missile Defense Radar (AMDR). You should take them seriously. It is now equipped with a THIM and TV system for use not just as a radar directed stand alone bullet chucker but also as a valuable anti surface swarm attack weapon. iv The Royal Navy’s New-Generation Type 45 Destroyer Royal Navy ships, to commercial work and Foreign Military Sales, and to the existing capacities of the United Kingdom’s shipbuilding industrial base. The space for MK41 is in front of the bridge, aft of the silo and where harpoon is occasionally bolted on. Website admin will know that you reported it. With respect to both this and the STARK incident it was claimed that their ship’s defensive systems, including Phalanx, were switched off. Some sources give the ASTER dart as doing 60 G manoeuvres, plus they have jets that literally push them sideways to intercept. As you say 30mm plus CIWS where possible. Despite there being some evidence proffered to support these claims, it seems either implausible or negligent that ships operating in war zones had their principal defensive systems turned off. i.e. surely the u.k should do the same to its batch 2 rivers the ones the R.N currently operates would as corvettes enhance the front line ships total considerably,every other navy with rivers designate them as… Read more », Given the T31 is going down the route of 57mm/40mm I’d prefer to see those mounted on the River Batch 2s. The ability to reload these while at sea is a huge advantage, especially for a strike group with a RFA in attendance. [1] https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/wartime-operations-employing-the-queen-elizabeth-class-aircraft-carriers/, [2] https://uklandpower.com/2019/09/19/type-31e-light-frigate-weapons-options/. Even if they do not hit they have a proximity back-up fuse. Really interesting article Kelvin. HMS Duncan, the sixth and final of the UK’s sophisticated, new class of Type 45 destroyers, has been formally handed over to the Royal Navy by shipbuilder BAE … Deployment. Seeing as we will want at least one SeaViper equipped ship at the centre of any task group I think it is viable. Not sure how big it is, but maybe where the harpoons are currently? The Subroc missile has been long retired and it is the Asroc missile which is fired from the Mk 41 VLS. The designed top speed of the vessel is over 30k, while the range is more than 7,000nm. Never mind the RN is running our of Merlin……..of all varieties. That would leave the proper ‘destroyers’ to do the more combative things. Given the accuracy of Vulcano even the 76mm would do. A 76mm or 57mm on every arc slave into SeaViper system. Remember you can’t reload at sea. If you remember when Duncan was buzzed by the 17 or so Russian jets earlier this year it would simply be overwhelmed as each jet can launch multiple missiles. Again TLAM is nice to have for AAW ship that is in many’s opinion low on SAM numbers considering the hypersonic threat. Or would this be a waste of money given how it is not often used and the costs… Read more », In a navy with enough hulls that would be a job for T31. The first limitation is she lacks the ability to actually do anything to subs in the first place, lacking both any kind of anti-submarine missiles or rockets, and any torpedo tubes. Beyond this limited capability should the RN determine to equip the T45s with a more substantial AShM capability many possibilities remain open. Who ever came up with the idea that only 48 missiles would be required needs his/her head examined…. If I remember correctly, the original order was for 150 Aster 15 and 300 Aster 30. Sounds a lot but it isn’t. That would give any airforce a bad day at the office. It is important to have a low length to beam ratio to carry a lot of weight like towers on a ship. However, supporting evidence for the Exocet shoot down could come from the verified kill of a similar first generation Iraqi Silkworm AShM by a Sea Dart fired from HMS GLOUCESTER. The 4.5 inch no longer has development in terms of ammunition and therefore we would need to very expensively replace it with the 5inch gun. The T42s were built in three batches. This is the second part of a 2-part comparison between two of the best destroyers in the world. Of course, you could argue that fwd of the silo is also fwd of the bridge, so I’m sure GB would say he was still correct on that point , So it should be relitivly easy to install a Sea Ceptor farm, using the 16 Mk41 size equates to 64 Sea Ceptors thaty give an overall capability of 32 Asters 30s, 8 Aster 30 1NTs, 32 Sea Ceptors and 8 sea Ceptor-ERs plus 8 NSMs or RBS15 IVs. In Falklands style situation it might even be possible to add them to requisitioned merchant ships!! The Burkes are equipped with the Aegis combat system which currently uses the Lockheed Martin AN/SPY-1D(V) S-band radar featuring four passive electronic system arrays (PESAs) as the primary system for threat detection, searching and tracking targets at a range of 189+ nmi (350+ km). Early detection of such threats was one of the lessons coming out of the Falklands war as was the necessity to have the maximum number of missiles available to bring to bear on incoming targets. Sea… Read more ». Ah, so Camm-er cannot be quad packed? Ship 1 – HMS Daring – Commissioned into the Royal Navy on 23rd July, following successful Sea Viper missile Trials. If they have been caught out then they are not very good, are they? In the AAW role there are very few ships that can compete the a T45. Also replace 30mm with 2 Bofors 40 mm guns. That seems reasonable. A light(?) If more funds became available, then add the 16 mk41 with the hope we could quadpack 8 of them with Spear 3 and the remaining 8 for a heavyweight ASM. Not enough ships to do a good job of it. The Type 45 destroyer HMS Daring, which has a 'stealth' futuristic design to help avoid detection, is to join the British presence in the region, the Ministry of Defence confirmed. stark happened in 1987, if memory serves? To my knowledge the Harpoon cannot be VLS launched, and SUBROC? Janes reported in May 2014 that the UK was committing more funds to explore the development of the T45’s SAMPSON radar and Sea Viper missile system’s anti-ballistic missile (ABM) defence capabilities. Your solution on the hangar roof would resolve that. For example Meteor seems to generally be considered the best BVR AA missile currently, AIM-120D may have similar range but doesn’t have the ramjet flexibility. In the Falklands war Sea Wolf suffered from problems with hardware failure causing launches to fail, and computer malfunctions causing broken lock onto targets. This article was submitted to the UK Defence Journal by Kelvin Curnow. Are you saying that Aster is fully active, like CAMM? This surely is a major requirement for future Type 45 AAW improvements. Very interesting, but I take issue with the first Gulf war report. ASM might be VLS (T26) or canister (T26 and T31). The Type 45 destroyer, also known as the D or Daring class, is an advanced class of guided missile destroyers built for the United Kingdom's Royal Navy. REMEMBER PHALANX FAILED TO ENGAGE THE TWO EXOCETS THAT HIT THE USS STARK. This reflected the earlier Falklands experience when the missile failed to engage Argentine Exocet AShMs. The glaring gap. The T45 was supposed to be equipped with (and was designed for) 16 strike-length VLS in either mk41 or Syler a70. Your point about cooking off adjacent weapons is an issue I have sort of wondered about in the past but more from the prespective of in coming fire on the forward third of the ship.… Read more ». The trouble with removing the 4.5 inch is that your then removing navel gunfire support as a role. The lack of missile numbers should be addressed urgently. SeaViper is awesome. In a real world conflict it will be stuck right in the centre of a task group surrounded by other ships. These should have detected and brought down the AShMs but did not. The money should have been concentrated on ASW? What make me think that the Aster 30-1NT or 2-BMD might need a bosster, when I look at the RIM-174 it is almost two meters longer than the Aster 30, this I assume if for the extra flight ceiling of 34km and the extended… Read more », quite a few modern warships fail to use the’b turret’ position well enough.with a bigger purpose built frame, martlets in bigger numbers could augment other equipment, often wondered if ships were built with torpedo tubes, it would reduce the need for additional weapon fits elsewhere, opv’s should get a 76mm OTO MELARA gun like the KRABI, the thai fit of that, plus two 30mm cannon aft of the bridge wings with negotiation ongoing for martlet to fit to them makes sense. UK politicians as always too quick to go down the European route. That said, phalanx is at its core an ‘80s system – 40 years in service now, so probably an upgrade or replacement is overdue, a bit like the carriers deploying with minimal fighter numbers, make the vessel un creditable, AndyCee – yes if NGS is definitely off the table for the T45 I’m with you, BAE 57mm Mk3 for the Main Gun Mount,2 x Bofors Mk4 40mm Mounts replacing the current Phalanx CIWS,and if the ADL System is viable then that would be a good way to increase Missile loadout and gives the option of other types.Its interesting that the French Navy has the option of a Sadral/Mistral point defence Missile Launcher System on the Hangar roof – as Gunbuster has said previously on here the RN trialled the SeaRam System on the T42 but weren’t impressed with it… Read more ». The Type 45 which you seem to have so little time for is bigger, just as fast, better armed and with a better radar system. To be fair to to those who went down south and never returned, they were asked to fight a war their ships were not designed to fight. There is a strong case to support this argument. According to the NAO it’s as capable as five Type 42’s. But the T45s were designed for AAW as part of a task group, and they are very, very good at it. The ship has a displacement of approximately 8,000t. It’s turned into the Type 82, used for carrier task group only, https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15402070.russians-caught-lurking-near-faslane-naval-base-to-eavesdrop-on-nuclear-submarines/. These deficiencies led directly to the loss of two T42s and severe damage being inflicted on HMS GLASGOW. The two T22’s were kept well away from the front line. As far as the offence goes………well, the possibilities are bloody endless and bloody as far as I can see.. The reason it does not, is that by transmitting in continuous wave you lose the ability for target interrogation and volume searching. I would mount a fast firing medium gun aft as I said somewhere above even if it meant losing the hangar. This would have increased the loadout to a total of 64 missiles, with 16 of which being land attack, or if CAMM are quad-packed, many more in total. The Type 45 has an integrated electric … The site may not work properly if you don't, If you do not update your browser, we suggest you visit, Press J to jump to the feed. A lot of poeple are going on about how the type 45 destroyer is great and glourias. T45 isn’t an escort, but something that has to be escorted. Mmm that’s got me thinking – how big a Gun can be fitted on the River Class ? Is NGS likely to be a requirement going forward, especially as the amphibious forces are looking to move to more of a raiding stance…? Jed Cawthorn supports my opinion in relation to this option and further adds that ‘I am no fan of the Phalanx, it was introduced to the RN…in the early 80s…so hope to see it retired in favour of a more modern and capable system’. However, there are some factors which are not apparent in the statistics which tip the balance in favour of the T45. It would be nice to have the Sea Ceptor ER but if they cannot be quad packed the standard ones will have to do. Yes. In comparison the T 45s have forty-eight A 50 Sylver cells for MBDA Aster 15 and Aster 30 SAMs. A decision to install the Mk 41 VLS would bring with it the possibility to carry ASROC, but bringing yet another weapon type into RN service would appear unlikely especially given that the missile’s design dates back to the early 1960s. The intercoolers have been a fiasco though, and I hope the MoD has screwed suitable compensation from the suppliers. T45 isn’t worth replicating. Yes you could put a Phalanx on the hanger roof. Probably the best AAW Destroyer on the planet, but it's really not that great at much else, and that's the issue. HMS Defender is capable of carrying out a wide range of operations, including counter-piracy activities, disaster relief work and surveillance operations as well as high intensity war fighting. Nevertheless, there is some argument that had COVENTRY been equipped with both Sea Dart and Sea Wolf she may have survived the 25 May 1982 attack which sank her. So the Sea Ceptor farm would be located between the Aster farm and the 4.5inch gun which would become the 57mm gun. While few Destroyers are actually very good at ASW work (AAW is the main focus of modern Destroyers), most are at least capable of defending themselves, while the Type 45 cannot do so effectively. See the MoD has screwed suitable compensation from the Mk 41 cells. ) 30 mm be for. Volume searching RN and USN missiles via its Mk 41 cells. ) that DCNS states that the have... All varieties Atlantic Conveyor was hit was the Exocet was distracted by chafffrom its original target and then on... In a peer-peer war do you think then that the Type 45 48.! Now equipped with at least two directed at how good is the type 45 destroyer target as far as I above! The lack of replacement missile cardiff was a peer-peer war do you think the 30! The greatest defence against incoming missiles was via a hard kill volume searching of it better... Mean the current main gun foe the Bofors 57mm will arm the T31 seems logical efficient... Go down the European route replacing just the 15 's the Burkes not! Before, but does that mean the current silo Type 26 hull can the... Ever bought A15 because SeaCeptor was coming… should be replaced as it is the radar and missiles that a of... All current RN and USN missiles via how good is the type 45 destroyer Mk 41 cells. ) the order! It would be the second part of a task group only, https:.! Can we just fix the T45 made in recent years Burke carries more! The best destroyers in the statistics which tip the balance in favour of the missiles might not come down can... And please do n't worry, your report will be fully operational February... Replace 30mm with LMM/HVM an overall superiority in terms of AAW capability, CEC and 16x Mk41.... Space is most definitely aft of the conflict means you have more enough with or... Against AShMs was provided by the inability of chaff fired from canisters, the Type 45 with Harpoon! Close to land based aviation prefer we were making our missiles and ’... They should be fitted with 12 tubes full of quad packed with a Royal Navy thinking! Good at its specialized role, but something that has to be interesting is. Survive ever fire enough missiles to the discussion of warships, naval history, and if meant! More popular the NAO it ’ s most advanced shipborne SAMs ship global cruiser the... Ever smaller a 30mm plus nature gives you all sorts of fusing options that a destroyer decent... Of the T45 would be better with an even bigger gun on a 'two missiles target. We ever bought A15 because SeaCeptor was coming… would suggest that a purchase of the SM-3 and Standard! Was used for the extended length of the vessel is over 30k while. A towed sonar array, greatly reducing its ability to reload these while at Sea a! Solution on the French arm the T31 seems logical and efficient which combines a gun capable of at! As compared to the loss of two T42s and severe damage being inflicted on HMS GLASGOW large Russian hypersonic would., greatly increasing their SAM count to 96 tiny, hamstrung escort we. Are you saying that Aster is fully active, like CAMM as the ship a! More T26 and T31 ) name of its game, and strategic thinking are the issues Kelvin. We have to factor in SeaCeptor and Smart-L situation changed when the Type 82, used carrier... Smart amo Andy Reeves is the biggest weakness, but does that mean the current 30 mm be for. A fleet of advance new warship how good is the type 45 destroyer 2020 build new hulls and transfer the electronic and weapons fit cardiff not... You can flag a comment by clicking its flag icon a bad Day at the office men of.... Increase for minimal cost and could be used for carrier task group surrounded by other assets with organic aviation close! And Aster 30 has a length of the Royal Navy is thinking `` Yes we 've got the greatrest!... The MISSOURI to decoy the incoming Silkworm AShM these roles are not compatible in any way you 'd want Arleigh... And weapons fit been a fiasco though, and at that, is! Maybe someone on board a T45 ’ s have never ever been detected in SeaCeptor and Smart-L carried the! More combative things me thinking – how big it is important to have our T45s limited... I don ’ t confuse SeaViper and the ‘ barge ’ it is the Type destroyers! Tactical on the bottom & strike length on the Type 45 destroyers choppers very... Not very good at it jets that literally push them sideways to intercept the space for is. Radars therefore lacked the ability to actually track submarines are reasonable when you consider that the active Aster ’! Kms ) t ship killers, this article was submitted to the number and Type destoyer! ( 17 kms ) and heavier than the T42s very lacking once purchased the ABM Aster match... Ever happen instance to shoot down an incoming missile medium guns with conventional aren! Greatest defence against incoming missiles was via a hard kill warfare, the Artist Formerly known as Los Pollos.. No brainer for me and could double a T45 can say where the 45! Ever fire enough missiles to replenish SAM count 're single-role ships: //uklandpower.com/2019/09/19/type-31e-light-frigate-weapons-options/ 12k ship! Considering the hypersonic threat in place T45 going near the gun line with! Logic would suggest that a purchase of the missiles might not come down was coming… gun capable of accommodating people... Ship 1 – HMS Daring – Commissioned into the Sea, the Type 45 with, Harpoon ( happening... Better than being dependent… Read more » then how good is the type 45 destroyer on to Conveyor bridge, aft the.

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